Marketing vs Branding: How You Can Use Both to Drive Business Growth

Tom Hunt 0:00
I totally agree with that in on the first point, I would urge anyone to read Amazon's letter to shareholders from 97 to like 2019, Jeff Bezos says that we are the most customer-obsessed company in the world. And everything we do is just how can we help this person within the bounds of profit and profitability, of course.

Vinay Koshy 0:21
Hi, and welcome to the predictable b2b success podcast. I am Vinay Koshy. On this podcast, we interview people behind b2b brands who aren't necessarily famous but do work in the trenches and share their strategies and secrets as they progress along this journey of expanding their influence and making their businesses grow predictably. Now, let's dive into the podcast,

Marketing versus branding. The two are undoubtedly connected, but there are minute differences between the two. At a high level, you can say that marketing is the set of processes and tools promoting your business. This could include things like SEO, social media, PPC, local search, mobile, and traditional promotional methods and tools. branding, on the other hand, is the culture itself the message that permeate and rules all the processes of your business. As a business owner or executive, it is essential that you understand branding and marketing both in great detail so that you can effectively utilize them together.

Our guest says he has come to some counterintuitive conclusions on the above. From his experience as a serial entrepreneur. This is what I know about him. He has been in the online marketing game for over seven years. During this time, he has set up and shut down countless online businesses, and has now converged on the world of b2b marketing. He's the founder of fame and be cast and spends most of his time thinking about how businesses can use content, specifically podcasts to grow. He's also the host of the brutally transparent and marketing podcast Confessions of a b2b marketer and runs one of the biggest SaaS marketing communities in the world called SaaS marketer. Tom Hunt, welcome to the podcast.

Tom Hunt 2:10
Thank you so much for the lovely intro.

Vinay Koshy 2:12
No worries.

Tom Hunt 2:13
It's great to be here.

Vinay Koshy 2:14
Pleasure to have you, Tom. I am curious, you started bCast, but I was wondering what was the original problem you're trying to solve?

Tom Hunt 2:24
Your question? So the I kind of run a service and a software business, the service business came first. And the services basically running podcasts for businesses. Now we doing this for clients. And we were obviously paying someone else to use the podcast hosting software, which is basically the software that you upload audio files to, and it sends them to Apple, Google, Spotify. And we there are some things that we wanted to do that the provider wouldn't, didn't do. And then we also thought that if we had our own hosting provider, then that will probably reduce our internal costs. And the automation we could build into that provider would then reduce our internal costs further. So it almost started like efficiency, an attempt to driving efficiency and reducing costs for the service business. Right. But then has since blossomed, let's say into his own product and brand.

Vinay Koshy 3:23
Excellent. And Tom you've been on quite a journey for over seven years now. So what would you say is your personal area of strength?

Tom Hunt 3:32
Good question. I think it's probably the intersection of psychology and content.

Which, which really, if you think about this is probably an easier way of saying that it's probably content marketing, like influencing people, by providing information is probably the thing that I enjoy the most, and probably got the best results in over the past like seven years,

Vinay Koshy 3:58
Right. And in that area of strength, what is something that businesses don't know, but should

Tom Hunt 4:07
I think the core the basic premise of content marketing is that you should provide information that the people that are going to buy need before they buy, regardless of whether it directly sells your product or service or not. And that's the key thing. Because if you do that, if you can help them on their journey, then that builds trust, it builds things trust in you and confidence in themselves. And so then it's actually normally better not to directly sell your product or service during that time because then the reach of your content will drop. So that's the that's like the core idea, I think behind effective content marketing,

Vinay Koshy 4:53
Certainly. Okay. And when we were speaking offline A while ago, you were of the opinion that marketing should not be your top priority, but rather products should. So in the context of what you just said, Could you expand or elaborate on that?

Tom Hunt 5:10
Yeah, so we just spoke about a specific marketing strategy or tactics, content marketing. I think that the importance placed upon marketing in the business world, in general is too high. And that, actually, instead of like shouting about the importance of like how you should get good at marketing and sales, first, we should chat about how important it is to build something that people really, really like. In the reason I say that is because that is more sustainable. Having being really good marketing by Robert price product is not sustainable. having really good product being rubbish in marketing is sustainable. And they're like, if you go around, you have a good product first, then actually, the marketing budget will be like twice as effective, because it's augmented by the word of mouth, from the people that do re like your product.

Vinay Koshy 6:10
Right? If I could put that another way, would you say that even though you're fake, very much focused on product, it's really your brand ethos that's driving it? And thereby branding?

Tom Hunt 6:25
Sorry, could you ask that again? I didn't fully understand.

Vinay Koshy 6:27
Sure. Even though you're saying that the product should come first. Would you say that? If you mean, as I think about it, I would say that really, it's your your brand ethos that's driving the development of the product and all that goes into it, including the the purpose, the vision, and the mission, and therefore, would I be incorrect? If I will say that, really, you're investing in more branding exercises, which includes development of the product?

Tom Hunt 7:00
Yeah, I think tansa. to comment on that we have to define what our brand is. I think Brad is simply the idea of your business in the head of someone else. And so yes, you can positively impact brand by showing really good product. And so yeah, you could say that improving product, improving the brand, improving your product is not the only way to improve your brand. You can do other stuff related to marketing. But I think the best way probably to build a brand is by improving the product, everything about Amazon. I think that their brand is largely built by the fact that their product is really great. And then on the flip side of that, I will probably say that Facebook, for example, of course, they have an incredible product, but I think their brand has been tarnished almost by things not related to their product, he do the way they handle people's data, Amazon, I think have largely been able to avoid any tarnishing, or maybe they have had that recently with challenges about not paying people enough, etc. So Amazon, anything is an example where the brand is still really good, because the products are really good. Facebook, I think is a good example of a brand where the product is great, but the brand is, is probably hurting a little bit at the moment because of stuff they're doing. not related to the product.

Vinay Koshy 8:19
So okay, and if if you want to look at product first, does that mean we just continually communicate with potential customers and customers in order to refine the product? And if so, at what point in time when when we start looking at how do we scale this thing? Do we then start looking at marketing?

Tom Hunt 8:44
Yeah, I think there are a number of ways of the two directions in which you can come to create your product vision one is centralized, which is you think you know how to build a great product, which is the Steve Jobs methodology, or they're further more decentralized, where you ask continue to get feedback, really the best way to do it through both. Now unfortunately, with because because we're running these podcasts for businesses through the agency, we all kind of almost the customer as well. So that is actually a reason why that is quite good actually to run a service and an agency at the same time. So we obviously have quite a good idea of what what is going to produce results for businesses. And so we can feed that into the roadmap. And what we probably do need to get better at is getting information from from users on what they think they would like. Now, obviously, when you get that information, you have to pass it through various different processes and filters to say you are actually building stuff that's good for the business long term, not just the short term whims of somebody who wants this feature when no one else does. So I think the the way you do improve the quality is through this from both directions. And I think one is better than the other. I think they work most effectively together. And then at what point do you Look at marketing. I think that this is something Sasha helped us very recently because it only a year old. And it was like once two weeks ago where we started having people come and subscribe, while we have no idea where they where they come from, that is the golden moment, in my opinion, because it means that he basically means that they've either been exposed to your product through the process of someone else using it. And we can talk about that a super powerful method, or they've been exposed to the product because someone else is using it and has told them about it. And so if it's the second one that kind of shows you that the product is doing something, right, because typically people don't refer other people to a product, if it's rubbish. Sure, that's the, that's probably the moment where it makes sense to invest or to think about investing in marketing, I would still put more focus onto the product at that stage anyway.

Vinay Koshy 10:52
So so. So using that, once you start getting word of mouth, but you're able to notice, if not necessarily track would be the point where you could potentially start making certain decisions about how to scale, especially in the marketing space.

Tom Hunt 11:12
Yeah, I think it's still like, the analogy I love is the jet ski and the like the warship, when you're starting a business, you're trying to work out like who you who you help, how you help them, you're like, you should be like the jet ski, you can move, you're very agile. And then when you do lock into a product and a customer, then you can start building the warship and you can go faster and stronger, get in that direction. Now, so that's the kind of the size of the boat, let's say is defined by the number of people and the amount of resources you have to grow. And so I would only start adding those resources or the the extent to which you add those resources is reflected by the extent in which you're confident that your product matches that group of customers that you're targeting. So once you do start to get word of mouth, that is probably a good sign. But that doesn't mean that you have the product that really serves this group of people that you really want to go after. So that's what I'd be looking at before looking scale sales or marketing.

Vinay Koshy 12:11
Okay, so you not too long ago ran an offer on AppSumo. That is for for bCast I am assuming that you'd have got a whole surge in in users of bCast. How does that fit into your overall thinking? Was that more just to ensure that there was traction with the product and that users could find value in it? Or was there more to the decision?

Tom Hunt 12:36
Great, really good question. So we had to build a product in a in any market, especially a competitive market like podcast, I think you need resources. To gain resources in the early stage of the business, you have three options. Either you sell fund, either you go to investors and get them to give you money. Or you can go to customers and get them to give you money in presale where they buy access, early access. So we took the February where we went and pre sold, we sold about 2000 like offers or codes as he calls it and which has generated about 1300 users this has poured us about 70,000 pounds in in cash in order to reinvest into the product. So the core reason why we did it is for the cash. Right now the the kind of ancillary reasons why we have done it also, I think there are two first is that we do now have 1300 users that can help us with that, that direction on the product development, which is other people telling us how to make it better. So we are doing now we have a massive list of things, a feedback from them, and that we put them through presses and to say what we need to build. The second is, and I alluded to this earlier as well is how can we, once we have a thesis? How can we enable them to spread the word as they use a product? This is either called product growth, or it's called user led growth, which is basically as a user does what they do, given the product? How can they somehow how it spreads your brand new to other people in their network. And so we have built certain things into the products that will, in theory, do that to help drive that the brand awareness from those users. So main reason is cash sales. second, and third reasons are exposure through user growth. And then, obviously, feedback for us.

Vinay Koshy 14:34
Could you expand on the user rights features that you've embedded in the product?

Tom Hunt 14:40
Yeah, so the I'll give a couple of examples. Probably the most powerful is obviously giving everybody who's running a podcast and embeddable player that they can embed onto their blog that we didn't get to do follow backlink from that but we do get a link to our site along with the exposure of a brand The second, and this is actually probably the most powerful is we automatically create a podcast website for everybody that comes. And so that is, like it's hosted on our domain, though you can put on a customer's domain if you would like. And so that people would have the link people to the episodes on our website, right. So if they have an email list, they might email the link to the episode to the whole email list they'll pick through and then it's got a lightly branded, but that does expose other people to the biggest brand. And then the third example of an automation helps us with the agency is that people can put the email address with a guest. And because we'll automatically send the guest, a email with share links for that episode. And so that helps this short stays a small amount of time for the podcaster. But then also for us to expose the guest to the biggest brand because the email is slightly branded with broadcast. So those are three examples of features we built into the product in order to help our users spread the word about bCast as they use us.

Vinay Koshy 16:01
Certainly. And that's a great, great way of doing that. I was wondering, though, for for those who may not be so or certainly wouldn't have the technical resources to develop tools, which could be widely used, what would be your suggestion to get that level of exposure or word of mouth?

Tom Hunt 16:23
Yeah. So here's for people that had to have products that may not expose people in the waist up customers.

Vinay Koshy 16:31
Yeah. So I'm just trying to think of an example. Maybe it's personal productivity tool that you yourself would use, but wouldn't necessarily be able to share with others to

Tom Hunt 16:40
Yeah, so I wouldn't. So so what we did is we mapped the exact journey that a user would take as they use product, like, what would they be doing when they use every different feature, and fees, each stage or each action that a user would take we, in another column in a spreadsheet added other potential people in their lives that would be included in that step. And so if you take the example of the personal productivity software, you say, it doesn't look like they would interact with anybody else using that, but to the customer head straight away, is that maybe they work within a team, right. And so they would, they could invite other people to look at their to do lists, for example, or to share actions. So that would be a feature you can build in is to invite other people, the other one, and this I don't know if this would work, but let's say somebody created their for to do list on their phone, they finished their for to do list, maybe a screen would pop up and say congratulations, you've created your you've created for to do lists, you've earned this badge. Click here to share on LinkedIn, for example, right? Sounds rubbish. But that's an example. Right? So what is the emotional journey and other high points that someone might want to share? And then also, who else in the life of the user might add value to the users use of your product by being incorporated, Eg inviting team members to help complete items on a to do list?

Vinay Koshy 18:01
So in mapping this journey, are you actually speaking to potential customers about how they do things that try to solve a particular problem and then trying to overlay where your product could could fit into their life and and develop those high points?

Tom Hunt 18:19
So we, I think that we've been to customers, I think about three customers per week. And so all of our information fees, we have a product process, we feed all this information in. And so about about three, four weeks after we drafted that into the because quite a process. But I think actually most of the decisions we've made so far have been gathered from our experience running these podcast episodes as part of the agency. Now that may be because we're in the early stages. And it's kind of obvious, or is more obvious what we need to build. Like as a product progresses, I think we'll probably need to talk more to other people to understand how we can build something that is more valuable. Okay,

Vinay Koshy 19:05
Certainly. And you run a podcast yourself has How has that helped with promoting bCast at all? Or?

Tom Hunt 19:15
I'm not sure it's quite hard to understand. Like in terms of direct users from the podcast to because I actually don't know. And the reason for that is because I've only pitched because once on the podcast, that was when we did that appsumo deal. So obviously, people potentially would have gone from app from the podcast app Sumo bought, but I do have no idea who, if any, did or if yes, how many, so I can't I don't? It probably did. I mean, I think we've had like a slip between two and three 6000 downloads per muscle podcast, which is not massive, and so I assume someone bought I think there are other Indirect benefits. So I'll give an example. Susan Patel, who is like an online marketing legend, having a guest chatting with sooner or he or she see John's very he reached out to me saying, Can I come on the podcast? I thought, Yeah, sure. Sounds good. If you want to come on, and we'll talk about your story, that was great. And then we had a chat after that episode went after the interview. And he was like, well, I also I see Ron, because I'd love to chat about how he's been great. I love to give you advice. And so then he came back on the show, and we recorded his advice session, and it was 30 minutes of him just saying, This is what you should do. And so he gave like three points, and we're just executing on these three things. Right. And so what I think you got there with free consulting, because I did that consulting in front of an audience. And so that, that that's an example of how the, the podcast has benefited. Because at the same time, I'm also as well as running podcast business. I'm also a podcast myself, I'm trying to grow this podcast, right and say, that helps with a product product roadmap at the same time.

Vinay Koshy 21:00
Yep. Okay. So my listen to what you're saying. My takeaways would certainly be that as perhaps the founder, or certainly someone who has a key role in in growth or revenue, you're not the ultimate authority when it comes to your brand. But you should really be very much focused on your customers. And that there is really no single formula as such when it comes to developing a product or brand. But it's a bit of an evolutionary exercise. That'd be correct?

Tom Hunt 21:33
Sorry, could you ask that in a slightly different way? I didn't ...

Vinay Koshy 21:35
Sure I was saying that. My takeaways were that really, when it comes to your product and brand, you aren't necessarily the ultimate authority. But you really need to be very much customer focused. And the other takeaway that came to mind was that, and this probably stems from a bit of a misconception, at least in the minds of some people, is that there's no one formula as such for success when it comes to your brand and product.

Tom Hunt 22:06
Yeah, so I totally agree that then, on the first point, I would urge anyone to read the Amazon's letters to shareholders from 97 to like, 2019 word, or Jeff Bezos says this, that we are the most customer obsessed, obsessed company in the world. And everything we do is just how can we help this person? Well, within the round their profit, profitability? Of course. Yeah. And so yeah, that's I totally agree. And then your second point was, I was saying,

Vinay Koshy 22:33
There's no single formula as such for success when it comes to developing your product and brand.

Tom Hunt 22:42
Oh, yeah, yeah, of course, this is, yeah, that that's not the one thing. But everything you do, authentic strategies, you do it. The good product, or a good brand, is an emergent from a system, the process that you have to put in place.

Vinay Koshy 22:56
So just going off what we were talking about earlier about marketing not being the top priority, but rather product, taking away the fact that marketing is a great way to perhaps get a customer's attention, but your product is probably the best way to keep their attention. And while marketing may drive sales, your product and brand would really drive recognition and loyalty.

Tom Hunt 23:24
Yeah, I think ultimately, what we're trying to do with the business is you're trying to create is a Peter Thiel quote, I think, like X amount of value, and then capture y amount of that value for yourself. The thing that is going to produce the most value for the customers is the product, that marketing is really your attempt to influence them on to make the decision to invest in your product, and get that value back. So yeah, I this is why I think people get confused maybe that the marketing and making a sale is like the ultimate goal, as she probably should be more that the value they've delivered is the ultimate goal rather than the marketing. And and if you do that, if we get that right, then the marketing gets much easier. I'm curious as to

Vinay Koshy 24:15
How you're faring with the Sujan's advice in that consulting session that the two of you had has that paid off? Because I believe it was related to developing content and, and building that out.

Tom Hunt 24:29
Yeah, Yes, he is. He was like, What are you doing to grow because I will be doing content? And he's like, okay, what's the how many blog posts he producing? And I was like, one two a month. And if we need to change that, we need to do 30 to 40 in the next two, three months. So okay, I thought, Okay, well, fair enough. So I built this, I call it a content machine. But I basically had two writers and me. And we have I think we've really 515 person that in the last two weeks. So his theory is that just release loads of stuff. They don't have to be that great one. Great one a month. And the rest can be good. And so that's essentially what we're doing. I mean, the numbers are looking good is very early, though. So I'm just tracking impressions from the blog on Google Search Console. And it's like, it's obviously having an impact. But using low stuff. The, the beta is obviously a long term game. And so it will probably be best to cast an opinion on that in a year. But yeah, that's one thing. He said, what was the other thing you said you focus on features that would help your customers grow? Because if you do that, then you get the word of mouth. And so we've kind of tweaked our product roadmap based on that. So yeah, like what else? Oh, yeah, he will also like find everybody with an audience in podcasting, and make friends with them. And so that has actually worked pretty well. We've the big search time in podcasting is podcast hosting software. And so I have all 50 people that rank for that. And I'm just going through one by one reaching out making friends and ideally getting backlinks slash affiliate deals. So yeah, like we were if slow progress, but his advice has definitely changed what we're doing.

Vinay Koshy 25:58
Okay. And from a content perspective, would you say that it's, it's definitely important to focus on distribution, or is just publishing and playing a bit of an SEO game serving the results that you're looking for?

Tom Hunt 26:17
I think it's, it's almost like, it's quite an interesting concept that in content marketing, if you look at the content itself as the product, and then the distribution of the marketing of that product, then we come to the same conclusion in that, if the product is great, you do the content is great, then everything else else is much easier. So we, when you're putting out this volume, you it's very hard, and that's my full time job is writing, or I had a lot of money spent on writers, it would be hard to make every one of those great. And so we're doing exactly what Suzanna said, we're doing one great one per month, and then the rest are good. And they will add value to people in a journey if they're just not the thing that everyone's gonna be sharing. So I have with we will go through and promote every post will probably place more focus and invest more in promoting those posts that are better, because there's great upside, Eg that will get a better response. And I do more shares. And but but we will be producing every every post and promoting every post. So

Vinay Koshy 27:19
I'm interested in how you determine what features to add two products. Because with your with your customer base, I'm sure they offer plenty of advice. But how do you separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak, and to decide on what will probably give you the best dividends down the road down the road?

Tom Hunt 27:42
Yeah, so if if a combination of connecting the advice and then our own kind of insight and decision. The I think you have to look for echoes, you have to if 100 people say if you have 1000 users and 100 people say they want the thing, or that there is a bug that needs to be fixed, then that's something that will get prioritized if just one person who, who you can see isn't really using the product or handling his product that much requesting something that goes to the bottom of the list. And so that's the customer feedback list. And then we will obviously come in and with our knowledge and experience be like the thing that good, we should do this. And we'll also compare that with the product strategy. And our mission is business. And so for us is podcasting for marketers? So will this feature help the marketer and so we'll path through that filter, then we'll also pass it through the filter of how long is it going to take? Do we have the skills to do this? Do we have the resources to do this? And then ultimately, what you get a list that you can work from?

Vinay Koshy 28:47
So you really passing it through a bit of a matrix type filter. Yeah, and assigning scores to it, presumably in order to determine which which ones stand out.

Tom Hunt 28:58
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So something close to that,

Vinay Koshy 29:01
would you say that you would apply a similar process to developing content itself?

Tom Hunt 29:07
I think the process for content is probably more dictator led? No, so no, no. So if especially the high volume stuff that we've been doing recently, is, is keyword driven, which you could say is really user driven. Okay, if more people are searching for something, so so we look at volume, and then different difficulty. And so that, that that good stuff is that that's how we decide on that, in terms of the high quality stuff is more like just me thinking there wasn't much of a framework for that. Yeah, I assume, as we grow bigger, and we have someone else who's responsible for content that will probably will have to work out some kind of process or framework because it won't just be me that's deciding,

Vinay Koshy 29:44
Certainly, and the reason I asked is that there's all the content being produced. So and content can often be which I say something similar can be produced very, very easily. So I'm just curious as to how you would think about this. cheating yourself from the crowd, if you were to focus in on a particular topic,

Tom Hunt 30:06
Yeah. So our strategy here is that after you do decide to create a post around a keyword, we'll go look at all the other content around that keyword. And we'll try to somehow make that post better than the opposition. And then. So that helps. I actually think that most people are not regularly writing headlines. And so the big arbitrage in content marketing, the written content marketing on just simply improving the headline, which I think has a big impact on the success of the content and improve click through rates on the Google search results pages and click through rates or wherever, when shared on Facebook, etc. So that I think that is an opportunity.

Vinay Koshy 30:47
Right? Okay. I hadn't thought of that one before. Excellent. With with podcasts, there's quite quite a few being produced and with with COVID, and people staying at home, perhaps more than ever have started off, is there a way that you have found really helps in getting more people to, to listen in and share your podcast?

Tom Hunt 31:12
So I think the going back to what we said before about the quality of the content itself? That's the first thing that you need to focus on is, is the product really good? Easy is the content really good, because if you do that, then everything is much easier. So I tried to spend more time on the creation of the thing than the promotion of the thing, because that's not really helping with the audience listening. It's not sexy, right to say that. But that is the truth in terms of the getting people to listen, I don't think podcasts are very good for building an audience. I think they're great for building relationships with an existing audience. So what I actually did before I started my podcast, if I had an email list of like, two 3000 people, because I felt like I just had an email list and sat marketing space that I built myself. So the, again, that's not a good answer. So build an email list. That's what what else have we done to grow the podcast itself, we actually don't do that much promotion. Like we also offer gifts to share. We'll see. Right? The key takeaway is put them on the blog and optimize it for a keyword, we also create a little audiogram. So we post on LinkedIn and ask the guest to share. So that's like really standard stuff, obviously, in every directory, but that's very basic, we have to start to invest into it as is pretty inconclusive, the results. So but apart from that, and we haven't really, really done anything else.

Vinay Koshy 32:28
How do you prepare for the podcast episode though?

Tom Hunt 32:33
Yeah, so every guest it. I don't think I've ever taken a request apart from Sujan to come on. And so every guest it, I tried to relate it to the journey that we're having the theme of the podcast is that we're following the journey of growing agency and grandest SaaS company. So I try to relate every episode to that if it's just a solo episode, I think I've done three or four of these, then I will prep. Just in a Google Doc, I write down I'll think, and I write down what I think I should say, I don't practice our write it down. And then I'll just record, it was rubbish. I'll record it again. So it's really the thinking and writing writing notes and then reading them back.

Vinay Koshy 33:09
Okay, suddenly, okay, that sort of makes sense. So it I think it would resonate in the minds of listeners, given that you're going through personal genuine experience yourself and relating advice back to that. That's, that's excellent.

Tom Hunt 33:25
Yeah. So that's how for that's going back to the quality of the content. I think with podcasting, there has to be something different that has to be hooked to every podcast. And so that's our hook is that if you follow along the journey, and so the family side podcast is one of her has a specific person, or what is the specific thing that's different about your show that will lead people to subscribe, I think 10 years ago, you could release a poker and entrepreneurship podcast, and it would grow, but not anymore. So that's the thing that I would urge any listeners to consider.

Vinay Koshy 33:54
Certainly, we've covered a fair bit of ground, Tom, but I was wondering, is there an aspect of plot focused development or marketing that you feel we haven't quite covered? But should highlight?

Tom Hunt 34:08
I'm not sure, I think I think the the biggest thing from our discussion so far is the comparison between building a good product before you start the marketing and building good content before you start the marketing of the content. And so I think that's really important for content marketers to understand if the content is your product. So focus on that first, and then the distribution will be easier.

Vinay Koshy 34:31
Okay, excellent. And if listeners wanted to find out more or get in touch with you, where would you recommend they head to?

Tom Hunt 34:40
Yeah, so we have a podcast that I found, which is a podcast hosting software. And then if you have any questions directly, then you could search for Tom hunt, on Twitter, or LinkedIn, and you can just send me a message.

Vinay Koshy 34:51
No worries. Excellent. Tom, thanks so much for doing this.

Tom Hunt 34:55
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Vinay Koshy 34:57
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